2010-03-21 [Kaimee]: Hmm, note that in my navigation I included 'notes' (which I use every 40 seconds...) perhaps all should be available at the top of the notes page, but you select which you want to subscribe to in your sidebar.
Although with statistics, it's a toss up as to whether that's a sidebar item or a mainstreet item. Do we have any data on how often those items are clicked in the current sidebar?

Also actually, do you know if Hedda has data on which browsers/operating systems view elftown, by percentage? It would be good to know if we're designing for reasonable systems, or if it's going to be going all the way back to IE5 :P
My design uses a lot of transparency, but that can be easily dealt with if we have to go back to IE6-5 by simply changing the background colour to a solid, only using the wood as a header graphic (say, until the darker gradient there ends currently) and making everything else a gif with the solid background, instead of transparency.

2010-03-21 [Kaimee]: Chel that's a very cool idea! :O And also, very similar to what's already sitting there on your notes page, it would just need an added option to be managed by tick boxes (like messages) with a "tick all" feature. Currently you can only do it one by one even from that page >.<

2010-03-21 [Chel.]: I've gone through my watching wikis once... biggest pain in the ass ever! You have to wait for the damn page to refresh before erasing another! O_O'

Same goes for messages...
Btw, I'm curious...how long does ET store read mesages before auto-erasing them? If we could delete our own messages(EASILY)...would that clear up space on Elftron or any other ET server?
Unless I'm completely lost in how this site works and nothing I just said matters or makes sense. :P I try...

2010-03-21 [Kaimee]: ET auto-erases something/anything? From a quick check, I can go back to the very first message I sent on elftown back in 2003 :P _{(holy shit I was irritating, it's possible I was high >.>)}
You can 'delete' messages and remove them from your list (which I don't), but Hedda doesn't seem to like to actually delete anything, so I would assume they're still stored on a database somewhere :P

2010-03-21 [windowframe]: Also actually, do you know if Hedda has data on which browsers/operating systems view elftown, by percentage?

Last month 9.62% of IE usage on ET was on IE6. 0.02% (12 visits) on IE 5.5 and 0.01% on older IE5s.

But Hedda won't care if it's not IE5 friendly :P He didn't care before, and he'll care even less now even Google are phasing out support for them. 

IE6 can handle PNG, right? Or at least PNG8? <_<

2010-03-21 [Chel.]: Ugh...that's so freakin' stupid! You could clean up so much space! And there should be some sort of thing that erases members after they've been gone for like... 1,000 days or something. Old wiki's too.
I hate clutter.

2010-03-21 [Kaimee]: xD

xDDDDDD

Yeahhh.....you go have that conversation with Hedda :P We'll see how it goes xD I really can't remember the reasoning anymore, but nothing is deleted. Old members aren't deleted, in fact, many people have had massive hissy fits because it's impossible to delete your account, best thing you can do is change your username, remove your info, and put in a nonsense email.
I would assume it is something to do with how his databases store the info (would removing old stuff mess things up?) but he just doesn't seem to have a problem with clutter... as is evident by the entire site :P

2010-03-21 [Chel.]: SNAP!



....doesn't he watch this wiki? O_o'

2010-03-21 [windowframe]: Deleting old users messes the usernumbers up. I'm not sure if the same really applies to messages, since users can only see their own messages anyway.

2010-03-21 [Chel.]: Why can't the user numbers that are assigned to new members be constant while being able to erase old ones? Again, I know nothing about this stuff....just tidbits that I get from the computer science major boyfriend of mine.

2010-03-21 [Kaimee]: SilverFire: IE6 can only handle png with a java png fix, applied to each separate png on a stylesheet. And even then they often look like balls, and each user has to have java on... which they don't, because the dumbasses are still on IE6 :P
The best approach is to either make everything IE6 friendly in the first place (not going to happen with this design) or to create a separate slighhhtly different design on a IE5/IE6 stylesheet that uses solid colour backgrounds. That way, for example, every place we have rounded corners, we just put the solid colour in the 'background' areas, and don't have to worry. It's nigh on impossible to achieve on a textured or graphic background because it never matches up.
I'll upload a quick edit of how we would make it look for IE6.
EDIT: Things in the header will need t have a more solid shadow around them on all sides, so that each gif doesn't need to have texture in the corners. Beyond that, there will always be a slight mismatch on the textured corners.

2010-03-21 [Kaimee]: Chel: because he'd have to rebuild the way elftown worked, and who on earth has time to do that? :P *just realised what this wiki is about* >.<

2010-03-21 [Kaimee]: Silv: to give you an idea of the ugly corners approach, here's a shitty site we built solely for IE6 (because the aus gov is insane?), check out the corners on everything rounded! >.< http://www.chiefscientist.gov.au/

2010-03-21 [windowframe]: Because that would create a lot of broken links. In old wikis, wikicomments, messages, forumposts, etc.

we could have a conditional style-sheet for IE6? Or doesn't it work like that? Or is that actually what you're talking about? XP *hardly knows what she's talking about* <_<

2010-03-21 [Kaimee]: A conditional stylesheet, yes :P The little internet browsers would have a command essentially going "get stylesheet->style.css, HOWEVER, if IE5, IE6, get stylesheet->IE6.css".
That way, everyone gets the best of both worlds, instead of crippling the design for everyone to the level IE6/5 can work at.

2010-03-21 [Chel.]: *awkwardly stands aside from all the tech-talk* :] Good job guys... *cough* I'll just stand over here.

2010-03-21 [Kaimee]: Hahaha, don't get put off by how it's done, just keep coming up with ideas :)

2010-03-21 [Triola]: Looking at this, I hope project nr. 2 is redesigning of the Elftown Badges >.> they're bringing the awesomeness down!

But very good work, you guys! *applauds* I can't wait for this to become reality :D

2010-03-21 [Chel.]: I don't think the badges are too bad... the pixelation bugs me the most.

2010-03-21 [windowframe]: *agrees with Chel!* the stylistic differences between some badge-sets are annoying, but kind of inevitable when you gots more than one person making them. Some are a lot better than others, admittedly, but overall I think they're passable.

2010-03-21 [Triola]: Oh well, guess it's just me then. But I've never liked them :P

2010-03-21 [Kaimee]: I'm not a huge fan, but they're so much a part of the history of elftown, and the various members who have made them over the years, that I wouldn't want to redesign them :P

2010-03-21 [Chimes]: That and it'd be hell to switch all of the old ones to new ones, when you think about how many different badge slots there are :P

2010-03-21 [Chel.]: Not sure how I feel about the newest installation you posted Kaimee. I guess it's just that the color reminds me way too much of deviantart. :/

2010-03-22 [Kaimee]: Whoops, that wasn't meant to show up huge, just meant to have a 300 thumbnail :P
That's a solid colour version for IE6/IE5 browsers, not something most people would ever see :P Apart from that, it's exactly the same as the other themes.

2010-03-22 [Chel.]: I'm partial to the wood throughout the background. :]

2010-03-22 [windowframe]: Kaimee, could you try and get your latest design down to 800px width? Which will probably mean getting rid of, or relocating the logo. <_< Do you think we could fit the side-bar at the top underneath the main nav?

2010-03-22 [Kaimee]: (Chel: you'll see wood throughout the background. Only really old browsers will see flat colour)

Silv: Latest as in IE6 only, or latest as in - the entire thing? :) I can get it down to 850 without relocating anything, which is a pretty standard size for site design.
I can mayyybe get it further down to 800, but how many people are viewing on monitors that old?

2010-03-22 [windowframe]: Entire thing. Not many: 1.26%. But unlike the similarly low percentage stuck using IE6, Hedda cares deeply about that 1.26% :P 850 is good though (could you post a version of it in the suggestion forum as a response to his post?)

2010-03-22 [Kaimee]: Hahaha, I already replied to his post :P
I'll post a version of it later today when I'm home from work, I don't have the files here now :(
And alternately, we could just factor in that lower res (800x600 is old school :P) to the IE5/6 stylesheet. Everyone else could get a more normal size like 1024x768.

2010-03-23 [Hedda]: [windowframe]: I want ET to look good on my monitor without filling up the entire screen. And mobile devices are getting more and more common, while IE6 deserves to die and is also declared dead and buried.

2010-03-23 [Hedda]: I'll have a go at trying to move the images in your house to the right and make the smaller (possibly with a mouseover thing, or is that just a pain?), but I think I'll mess it up...

2010-03-23 [windowframe]: If you mean a mouseover that shows you the bigger image: yes that would be a pain. If it's just one that tells you about the image, then it wouldn't be a pain, but I do think it would be pretty useless.

2010-03-24 [Chel.]:

2010-03-24 [Kaimee]: Oi, I like that upload a file :P It gives me a nicer url xD I think?! Did I imagine that???
The rest.. yeah, I would go beyond clusterfuck and call it a goatfuck.

2010-03-24 [Chel.]: Goatfuck?! XD I have to use that term today...

2010-03-24 [Hedda]: [Chel.]: The red should be there. The D20 is heavily used in RPGs. You don't understand what the forum-button does and that button is no where else.

The wiki-page rating could maybe be taken away if there is no rating, but the links to the lists are good to have.

Upload a file does something else. That button isn't there for normal users.

2010-03-24 [windowframe]: I don't think either the blog or the invite button need to be there, I've never found myself cursing at having to manually navigate to my diary or a forum to make a posting about a specific wiki. I agree that they're just clutter. It's no wonder some users are scared of the wiki when we shove such a confusing array of buttons in their face.

2010-03-25 [Hedda]: EH, foo? Where do you want to put the invite button then?

2010-03-25 [Viking]: And most of those don't need to be buttons. They should probably be links or some sort of a dynamic menu.

2010-03-25 [Kaimee]: That's a good point :) even a very basic drop down menu listing a lot of these actions with a 'go' button would condense everything well. Want to make a forum post? Select that option, press go. Want to rate the wiki? Want to invite someone? All these wiki actions don't need to be visible all the time, but they shouldn't be taken away altogether.

2010-03-25 [Chel.]: But why red? It's just SO different from the color pallet.
Nothing else is that color! Not to mention it's surely not the most important piece of information in that box so why is that red?


Also, I think the cluster of buttons can be easily figured out. Several of them take up a whole row of text.... why?! That goes for a lot of things on the entire ET layout. What's with the looooooong buttons everywhere? It's not like it's easier to click on because the buttons themselves are thin as hell.

Just sayin' :]

2010-03-25 [Chel.]: Yes Kaimee! I agree! Drop down menus would do WONDERS for this place. There is just SO MUCH info bombarding the casual ET member...it's intimidating and not user friendly at all. Not to mention....piss ugly.

Drop down menus for the win, yo.

2010-03-25 [Kaimee]: Hmm, I actually agree on the "why red" point, it could be a much brighter green than the others, or white sitting in a green-background box, to draw attention to itself, while everything else is on white....?

2010-03-25 [Kaimee]: In fact, this is what that entire wiki box looks like for me, and I prefer it that way. If I could edit the html, I would drop box the extra stuff, but for now I just get rid of most of it ;)

2010-03-25 [Chel.]: This isn't perfect but it at least shows how condensing makes things look clean without all that extra space. Ideally I should've sculpted this more but I just whipped it up a a few mins.
I simplified a few things too...

2010-03-25 [Kaimee]: That actually looks more cluttered to me than the one above it :P
Anyway, if the entire site were redesigned it would be layed out using css rather than tables, we can get a much cleaner layout at that point, until then it'd be a nightmare for Hedda to try and change all those tablecells.
Stick to specific small changes of style at this point (the red for instance) rather than the entire layout, they're changes we can actually get done.

2010-03-25 [Chel.]: ...>_>' I just figure if all that crap HAS to be there, smush it so it doesn't take up as much space. Meh.
Drop down menus FTW though...

2010-03-25 [Calico Tiger]: The "not exported" words are in red to let the user know... it's not exported. Export that biznitch. [Hedda] wants more people to see more of Elftown. To see our wikis and want to join. But if our wiki pages are hidden/not exported, they miss out on teasers that would bring them in :) The bright red is just showing how important that is to [Hedda]. Do I think it looks good? Hell no x) I like the changed suggestion of a big button in the same color (but in bold) as everything else :D Looks just as important, but not so weird on the eyes

2010-03-27 [Chel.]: I added [NOOOPE]'s awesome Mainstreet rant above.

2010-03-27 [Kaimee]: less rant, more solution :P

2010-03-27 [Kaimee]: Actually, one thing I've been wondering about: why is our calendar...not a calendar? It really does take up a huge amount of room this way, and a calendar could be created that would give you the event title on mouseover, and event details on click, so it's not like the information wouldn't be available in a smaller version....

Aside from that, maybe we should start drawing up different layouts for mainstreet? Even just sketched wireframes of how things could be layed out.
We're talking about redesigning stuff, that's probably the thing that needs it most, and that is also going to be the most challenging O.o
I'd be happy with a huge amount of compression so it pretty much all fits in before the standard 'screen fold', so no scrolling.
Condensed news/feature items with a much small thumbnail to the side of each entry, an events calendar, a sidebar for useful links, a little slideshow of recent donators instead of a row of photos, and a short blurb about elftown should be all we really need...?

2010-03-27 [Chel.]: No scrolling....would be awesome! And as you've seen...what's with the double featuring?! It doesn't make sense to me.
If the featured 'what-have-yous' were all in a row together, it would look so gorgeous!
I have another little spit about how they need to be updated more often but- that's another debate for another day I guess.

2010-03-27 [Linderel]: We know they do. We don't need to be told. If it bothers you so much, why don't you ask to assist?

2010-03-27 [windowframe]: Perhaps she means that some of them should have a more frequent update schedule than they actually do, rather than how often they are actually updated. Besides, if she did volunteer to help with, say, the DP, what would the reply be? :P

2010-03-27 [Linderel]: Well, my trainee (Flisk) disappeared on me, so I might be open to the idea of another. <_< And I'm pretty sure that the Featured Member peeps could use another hand since I'm ditching my post. As for the Featured Story, our update schedule of twice per month (when we can make it happen) is such because there aren't really all that many stories nominated.

2010-03-27 [Kaimee]: Oooh, speaking of all this, I'm going to go hijack Featured Art again. Me likes to play with other people's toys >.>
[Linderel]: Do you have a nominations storage page for featured story? I would like to check them out :P
[Chel.]: like I said, start sketching up layouts. Look at other websites that have news and thumbnails and such, see how they go about handling layouts.
[windowframe]: "Perhaps she means that some of them should have a more frequent update schedule than they actually do, rather than how often they are actually updated"
xD
Unlikely, how many of them are actually updated anywhere near close to their updating schedules?

2010-03-27 [windowframe]: Featured Wiki is at the moment, Featured Art was for a long while, though it's lagged a little bit recently. I have no idea what's happening with the featured member, or even how frequently they're supposed to update. :P

2010-03-27 [Kaimee]: Yes, the lagging is what lets me think it's ok to hijack it x) I let it get past the 5th, 15th, 25th and go ha, it's mine now >:)
Who does featured member? That's something that originated during my absence awhile back, and I never really caught up on it...

2010-03-27 [Linderel]: At some point, the update schedule for Featured Member was set at every two weeks or so. Currently there are... uh. Pubky, [NOOOPE], [Lady of Lore] and myself. I think. And all of us seem to be horribly distracted.

As for nom storage: Featured Story Nominations for the public view, storyfeaturenoms for Boss notes.

2010-03-27 [Kaimee]: Hmm, And with updating featured story, do you simply update the noms page, update news, link to story wiki, update archives and badge member? Or are there other pages that need updating?
Because I detect that I might hijack your toys as well >.>

2010-03-27 [Linderel]: Hurrr. Those, and then Featured Writers.
Go ahead, our next update should happen on Tuesday xP

2010-03-27 [Chel.]: I would love to help with the featured member thing!! I was actually just chatting with [NOOOPE] about it last night. I just can't do anything yet. I still don't have any privileges. >:[
This is why I do nothing but complain. I have no choice. Heh... I mean well, really.


It's too bad we can't run the 'featured' slots more strictly. Like... it would be changed every 1st of each month or something? That way we wouldn't have stuff on there from six months ago. >_>'

2010-03-28 [Linderel]: Update schedules are always going to wobble, no matter how strict they are in theory.

And, well... if you're accepted to be part of a feature crew, you will get the privileges you need for the job. Duh.

2010-03-28 [windowframe]: Well some of the features have enough material to run more frequently than that, so there's no real point in making them go more slowly when they can be daily/weekly/fortnightly. The main problem with them is keeping people motivated to keep updating them. People are good at it for a few weeks, and then just seem to get bored with it or lose interest. We could really do with at least one person on each feature whose sole job is to make sure that feature runs on time, scout for nominations if need be, etc. But we don't really have enough active and reliable volunteers for something like that.

2010-03-28 [Chel.]: Well ya don't have to be snippy about it... :[

2010-03-28 [Linderel]: Well, on my part, it's mostly a lack of time. >_< Which kind of sucks for DP. I need another me, or something. *got her original post because she nagged True constantly about updating*

2010-03-28 [Kaimee]: Chel I don't think they were being snippy :P Do you want to help out with one of the features specifically? Volunteer in the crew forum, talk to the current bosses. All the sections seem to be pretty dead right now, they might be able to use the help :P

2010-03-28 [Kaimee]: Linderel, what did I mess up on featured art? I see an edit with no changes...? O.o

2010-03-28 [Linderel]: It was a tiny edit. xD An extra apostrophe had snuck in. Pet peeve of mine, I'm afraid.

2010-03-28 [Kaimee]: Ooh ok, extra apostrophes can die :P

2010-03-28 [windowframe]: Even I think some of those comments read as kinda snippy. <_< But you don't seem to have managed to put her off volunteering, so back to the redesigning talk:

I think we should integrate the calendar down the side with the news - sort of merge MC and Upcoming News or something and feature private contests in the news when we have nothing official to write about. I think the important events thing right at the bottom should just fuck off. Especially since some members just hijack it to tell us every day on which someone in their country died or not. It's just not good.

I've suggested before that we move the features to a separate page, since even if there's still only one on MS, that's still one news item, one DP, one featured wiki, member, art and story. That's STILL a lot of stuff just there.

I think the news should be riiiiight at the top, and if we have to have the pictures of recent donors and links to button generators, worldmaps, cardeservices, etc (I agree with M!, some of those links are never going to get used and should be removed/moved elsewhere) they should be underneath the news. Because the news is more important.

2010-03-28 [Stephen]: I agree with Silvie on that. *has been haunting page silently*

The calendar should be moved, or reduced in size. It can be really large and take up space, specially with the MC posts on it. Could member contests be where they annual events thing is? (I think Silvie might have said something like that..)

I don't completely like the idea of moving the features off Mainstreet, though. It really takes away from the.. importance of them, and members would be less likely to submit to them. If they could be reduced in size.. somehow? Like made into scrolling boxes like the comment-text-entry boxes are, we could perhaps put one of them next to the other one (like you can box tags), so it more than halves the amount of space they take up without removing them.

2010-03-28 [windowframe]: I don't know how others view/find the features, but I get to them by clicking the links in my sidebar - I don't just randomly go to Main Street to see whether there's a new one, so for me, it wouldn't take away from the importance of them, because it wouldn't change my main way of navigating to them, but I guess it depends on how most people navigate to them.

Alternately, we could have the features on a separate page, but we could completely shrink them to a preview size, and leave a preview on Main Street, and clicking on them would take you to the actual feature on a different page. The new feature notifications in the side-bar should of course take you to the feature page, not to the previews on Main Street

2010-03-29 [Kaimee]: I actually do navigate to them by mainstreet, or if I happen to click on one in the sidebar, I read through the rest on mainstreet.

I think the size of the features box, and the format of the features themselves are what's taking up so much room.
Images are block elements that bulk out the posting with text above and below.
They should be a narrow thumbnail no taller than 200px, left aligned, with short text or links next to it.

Featured Members should contain an image, and a link to the wiki. MAYBE an excerpt. Not an entire feature.

Condensing features like this would seriously change the amount of space they take up. Please note that I do want to keep them on mainstreet, I think they're an important part of elftown, and really want them to get almost as much attention as the news.

2010-03-29 [windowframe]: The featured member already only contains an excerpt, and not the entire feature. Just sayin'. <_<

2010-03-29 [Kaimee]: The excerpt is too fucking long then :P
"Blah is an ______ member of __ years, totally _____ because he/she _______s, and _______ check out more about him/her here!"

2010-03-29 [Stephen]: I agree with Kaimee's earlier comment. xD

I do sometimes click on the little notices that appear on my sidebar, but I tend to partially ignore them. Shrinking the size of the features would be a huge improvement to the massive size of Mainstreet. If people can read it, you could also stick the <sub> in the Featured Member/Etc boxes that take up a lot of room, too. That's done sometimes on E12 with huge DP's, anyway.

2010-04-01 [Hedda]: 2010-04-01.css is now used in the standard index.css

2010-04-01 [Kaimee]: Uh yeah, about that, it's really broken :P

If this is going to be an accurate representation of the greywoods theme, please update link colours, fix the background colours/images, change the navigation buttons (also bookmark, refresh) to the ones I sent you, and preferably set other buttons (eg, buttons at top of house, wiki edits) to the same long green button within outlined box. We can update those to rounded buttons later.

:)

2010-04-01 [Stephen]: That explains why I don't see a background correctly, then.. I think.

2010-04-01 [Hedda]: If this is going to be an accurate representation of the greywoods theme

No, that has never been the point... And I don't know how to "update" or "fix". Now bedtime.

2010-04-01 [Kaimee]: Most users aren't getting any background :/ I sent you a screenshot of what it looks like, if you don't have time to fix this can we just remove the style/news until you've slept, and we'll put it up once it's functional??

2010-04-01 [Stephen]: I was hoping it'd look like the Silvie-idea one, once it's finished. That one looked awesome. xD (<URL:http://elftown.eu/stuff/aj/15586/kai-greywoods-greentan.jpg>)

2010-04-01 [Kaimee]: You don't know how to update or fix?? O.o

I can't edit the standard index.css or I would fix them.
The header graphic is missing, the content background colour seems to be overwriting the background graphic. I'm not sure what you've done, but those are the two most important parts of the theme!

Is the point to sabotage elftowners liking this new theme? :P

2010-04-01 [Kaimee]: Yes Simpet, it's meant to look more like the one Silvie and I created, although this first release would still have the standard elftown layout, and just have the graphics/colours updated.
Hedda has for unknown reasons published it before it looks anywhere near ready though :P

2010-04-01 [Hedda]: I had to remove the stylesheet.

2010-04-01.css for some bloody reason have some invisible box that is covering a part of the status-column so that it can't be clicked on. I simply can't find out why though.

2010-04-01 [Hedda]: Aha, the thing that was covering the links was just my debug-text. Nothing that would affect normal users. Puh!

2010-04-29 [Chel.]: Sooo....we taking a break?

2010-04-29 [windowframe]: Yeah, we are. For me, until at least the 7th. Don't worry, it's only on temporary hold.

2010-05-01 [Kaimee]: Me too, life is crazy busy with fulltime work/fulltime uni ._. Uni exam time will be over soon though.

2010-06-27 [windowframe]: Tiem to get back to workies? Here's a reminder of what the April Stylesheet looked like: Astyle. One of the things we seem to be having problems with is getting our designs small enough for Hedda's liking - so maybe we need to design a smaller, sleeker ET logo to go top left. Something not much bigger height-wise than the new design top-nav?

2010-06-27 [Kaimee]: Excellent, renewed interest :D Hmm, I think a new logo is crucial in the end, but not the most important thing. Although perhaps a contest or something would work for this? That way everyone gets some input, we have different options, and perhaps if we can refine the logos further afterwards, or even combine the best ideas, we'd end up with the best result.
...ha, listen to me, I'm a professional designer and when clients say shit like that I want to slap them.
What I'm aiming at is that if one person goes ahead and makes a new logo, there's probably going to be a lot of people who would have liked input. If everyone who wants input puts forth their ideas, and then crew fav can be refined *if* there's one we want.... we'll have a larger pool of concepts to work with.

ANYWAY, what I think is more important is the site design altogether :P
Hedda has given me info to be able to install a "local" version of elftown using the roxen technology ET is built on, so that I can experiment fully and work up some proper code (for navigation change examples etc) unfortunately it is many years old and not precisely mac compatible.
I am working on getting it set up, but have been working 7 days a week recently and had to put a hold on it. But I have talked to someone else running a version of it using an older mac system, and I think I can do something similar :)

Until then.. Hmm, I don't know whether it's best to work on these stylesheet changes (hell, I just use mine all the time, I haven't seen a green elftown for a very, very long time) or work on the wished-for design...

2010-06-27 [windowframe]: I'm not so much fussed about what the actual logo looks like as agreeing that it should take up less space and be generally smaller.

I don't feel that the stylesheet changes are really that productive (and what we're limited to changing is incredibly frustrating) .

2010-06-27 [Kaimee]: Precisely - regarding the stylesheet, especially when the main issues are things concerning navigation and layout, which aren't things we can really touch using the stylesheets.

I'll work on getting roxen running but it could be awhile before I have time for some serious coding, is anyone else here experienced in development?

2010-06-27 [Kaimee]: If anyone wants to start putting forth wireframes or layouts (which we can stick in that photoshop template, if everyone was happy with that general design?) for the new mainstreet that is probably the next big thing to tackle.

Everyone agrees we should cut it down, but I'd like to see different ideas for how to arrange it, what stuff should be the most important, and how to include secondary nav for quick links - things like competitions, crew links, herald, blah blah etc.
A lot of things would be better represented by graphics or larger titles, rather than a simple link in a list, but we need to work out what the hierarchy of importance is. It's easier to do that with wireframes, than try and write out a list.

My own soapbox... I *would* like to include a thumbnail and link to current herald issues relatively prominently (let nice graphics do the attention grabbing, not necessarily placement) although I understand that there are lots of people who would be happy to let that fade into obscurity... so input from everyone on how they want the layout would be nice :D

Something to think of... we could have a "slideshow" type box for all features, and it could flip through artwork, poetry, member, wiki etc... That way not all have to be visible at once.

2010-06-27 [Linderel]: At this point I shall shout a big NAY for the slideshow. My computer is retarded and every time a slideshow comes by I'm afraid it'll decide to crash, and if that happened because of Elftown it would be really tragic. Because it would result in avoiding the slideshow which means avoiding Main Street which means my job would get difficult.

Now this sounds like I'm making it all about me, but I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only person with problems like this. Just throwing that out there.

Plus, personally, I find slideshows ugly.

2010-06-27 [Hedda]: [Linderel]: Eh, you mean a slideshow made in Flash, I think.

I would build it in Javascript, which will not crash any new browser.

Making drop-down menus is something I've been thinking of, but it's a little hard to figure out exactly what I want in them and in which order. The idea is that you shouldn't have to use any drop-down menu for the most common things, but for things now down to the right or even on the "your notes" page.

2010-07-01 [Kaimee]: Linderel: Hedda is right, you mean horrible flash :P A little jquery slideshow would not crash things, and if you find them ugly, you aren't looking at the right places :P

Hedda: One click (or hover) to view secondary navigation items in a drop down isn't terrible, it's only when you start having all sorts of 3rd and 4th level nav in the drop downs that it would become terribly annoying to access things.

The most primary things (mainstreet, home/house, messages etc...) should be the top level nav, but at some point things should be under a drop down.

For instance, Messages (top level) should take you to your newest messages, but when you hover over it, a dropdown containing unread messages, sent messages, received messages.. etc should appear.

I would be happy with some things that are clicked on often (by most people, I assume) to be under a drop down, instead of every single important thing to be top level nav. Eg., Community could have Forums, Wikis, Competitions... etc under it. These are all important things, but it makes more sense to store them together, makes it easier for new people to find places to interact with the community, and reduces clutter in the navigation which makes it easier for people to find the things they're looking for.

2010-07-01 [Hedda]: Yes, exactly those were my thoughts.

And for example a "Search" drop down with member, wiki, Google, forum searches.

2010-07-01 [Sunrose]: I think Cali should get the catbutt when she signs in again..

2010-07-01 [Kaimee]: Yah I'm a huge fan of the search drop down :D (...catbutt?)

2010-07-06 [Kaimee]: Ok guys, I think it's really important that we make this redesign as boring, dull, drab, and dark as possible, because apparently those colours keep the crazies away *rolls eyes*

2010-07-06 [Sunrose]: *grins* :P

2010-07-15 [Hedda]: [Kaimee]: I coded so that every 100th page Cali got was a catbut instead of the page she was trying to access...

2010-07-15 [Chimes]: *appears* Haaaa! That's so amazing! *disappears*

2010-07-15 [Sunrose]: :D

2010-08-06 [Akayume]: This... Is amazing. And I couldn't agree more! But I think you'd almost have to change it gradually because otherwise a lot of people would complain. >.>

2010-08-06 [Akayume]: And I know you've probably talked about this, but a lot of the graphics have backgrounds with colors (to match what's currently in place), so it's almost as if those would have to be changed or deleted. :/

2010-08-06 [Kaimee]: A lot of them do, which is very strange when these days people could be using transparent pngs, or gifs with anti-aliasing... putting the background colour in is bizarre!!
But apart from that, I actually use my own stylesheet (similar to what was used for the april fools prank) already and so I get subjected to those green-background pictures... it just tends to look as if people wanted a green background :P

But you're right, it would be an annoying issue, perhaps we could allow people to turn 'on' a green version of the new website that they could use if they're sentimentally attached to the old green :)

2010-08-06 [Akayume]: And then all those pictures in the graphics group wouldn't have to go to waste. (:

2010-08-06 [Kaimee]: Precisely :)

2010-08-06 [Akayume]: But I totally agree there needs to be a new design, and more user-friendly. I've tried to invite people to join, and they've always complained of not understanding the website's layout.

2010-08-06 [windowframe]: I don't agree with changing it gradually, as then people will just complain 50 times rather than once. <_< People are stupid when it comes to change. Here we had the last visitors list and when Hedda tried to remove it, everyone complained - but the same people who complained about it being removed here would be screaming bloody murder if a visitors list was added to facebook. :P

Also: it's comparatively few images in Elftown Graphics that have a green background, I don't use the green stylesheet and most of them looked fine when I went through all the pages to check the counts were right (some of them even looked better on the stylesheet I use <_<)

2010-08-06 [Chel.]: Here here! I'm currently still using the grey fireflies background... :]

2010-08-07 [Kaimee]: Aww thanks, I like when people use my stylesheet :D
And actually, I wouldn't make the changes gradual (you couldn't with this type of site redesign) but it could be done in two stages; first to the stylesheet, which we had a surprisingly good response to on April Fools, and then secondly to the entire redesign. The redesign could take a very long time to build also, during which time (if we were using the fireflies stylesheet) we could hammer out issues with graphics, and the many buttons and such ;)

P.S Chel, I saw a transparent version of that geeky girl drawing you did, it looks FANTASTIC on the wood toned background colour :D

2010-08-07 [Chel.]: Uhh...what?

2010-08-24 [windowframe]: Okay, so, should we focus on getting a working stylesheet going that we could replace as the normal one?

Also: possibly work on getting just the top nav bar sorted, with all the various elements & drop-downs? I think Community probably needs to be replaced with separate links to the forums and Wiki index

Main Street button could have a drop down to take people to:
- News
- Daily Poem
- Featured Story
- Featured Art
- Featured Member
- Featured Wiki
- Featured Feature <_<

House
-profile
-diary/blog/journal
-guestbook
-poll
-statistics(?)

Messages
-inbox
-outbox
-unread messages

Notes
- possibly the list of blocked users?
- possibly a link to help page?

Forum
-list of forums
-unread forums

Wiki
Index
Wiki Help
Community (community index page)

2010-08-25 [Kaimee]: An addition to that:
I think everything on Mainstreet (and this should be as condensed as possible! :P) should be visible on the one page. Even if things like featured/daily items rotate on a slideshow: art > writing > poem > etc, these links in the drop down should link to anchor points on the Mainstreet page. If someone selects Daily Poem, it should load mainstreet and skip the slideshow to the poem.

As opposed to a person's House/Home (naming?) which has profile/jounral/guestbook etc in "tabs", ie different pages.

And notes: agree with both your suggestions :)
Would like to add: A page with different lists *that you can open* for watched wikis, commented wikis, changed wikis etc. Not all displayed in one long list. The little alert in the sidebar should link to changed/commented as normal, but it would be nice to have all this info also available with the full list of watched wikis.
It would also be nice to be able to use this Notes area to sort wikis you watch, allowing users to create different categories and drag a watched wiki into their custom category. This is wishful thinking :P
Imagine being able to sort wikis into To do, contests, art, storage etc! Am I the only one who loses wikis? >.>

2010-08-28 [Akayume]: I agree. And I think if you want to get something off your notes it should be able to be gotten rid of. I hate a cluttered notes page... Which mine is. :(

2010-08-28 [windowframe]: What do you mean, 'get something off your notes'? I mean, most of it is listing wikis you watch, right? If you stop watching the wikis, they won't appear on your notes page anymore. :o

2010-08-28 [Chel.]: I think being able to erase multiple wikis at once in the notes is a good idea too >_>

2010-08-30 [Akayume]: No that's not true. I stopped watching some pages and they still pop up because I own them.

2010-08-30 [Chimes]: Change the owner to someone else or no one? :)

2010-08-30 [Akayume]: But that's an extra step. DX I like things to be simple.

2010-08-30 [Kaimee]: So in the mythical, redesigned notes, you'd like to be able to remove a page from your notes entirely, whether you own or watch it? That shouldn't be too hard :)

2010-08-30 [Chel.]: Yea, and you can be able to delete multiple wikis at a time. Sort of like an inbox?

2010-08-30 [Kaimee]: Similar to the Deviantart friends management page? A list with Check boxes, where you can select all or individuals and then click unwatch/remove?

2010-08-30 [Chel.]: YES! O_O

2010-08-30 [Kaimee]: *genius* :P

2010-08-30 [windowframe]: Or we could tab the notes page, and list 'pages you own' on one tab and 'pages you are watching' on another.

2010-08-30 [Chel.]: Think anyone would use a "favorites" category?
Or if there was some way to list the ones that have been edited recently? :P

2010-08-30 [windowframe]: A favourites might be doable. Edited recently would probably be harder, but also comes up as wiki changes anyway, right? :P

2010-08-30 [Chel.]: True... I think the ability to delete multiples is a good first step :P *imagines a clean, organized list of wiki notes* Ahh... sweet bliss.

2010-08-30 [Akayume]: All these ideas sound good. (:

2010-08-30 [Kaimee]: I love the tabs idea, and a simple line of tick boxes on each page could give the ability to either Unwatch all (or selected) or Remove all (or selected).

Rather than Favourites, I would really like to enable a drop and drag Sorting functionality, with the ability to create Groups.
Say you click a + button, a text box appears and you type in a new Group name (favourites for example, or contests, RPs, etc) and then you can drag wikis from the regular Unsorted list into special Sorted lists.
A simple Apply Changes button at the bottom/top of the Notes page would save the Groups, apply removals/unwatches etc.
Perhaps the groups could also be Group-Unwatched/Removed, so if for example, you want all the wikis related to a contest on watch until it's over, you could Unwatch the entire group of them at once.

That makes more sense to me than a simple 'favourites' category, since in essence every wiki you watch is one of your 'favourites' (in the way this function is used on other sites, such as Deviantart) and you're already notified about changes.

2010-08-31 [Chel.]: THAT WOULD BE AWESOME.

2010-09-04 [pixish]: I really like Silverfire's redesign idea. It's so much cleaner and tidier, and looks very modern (while still being pretty)

I think keeping all mainstreet info limited to being one page is an excellent idea.

2010-09-04 [Kaimee]: Wait, do you like Silverfire's green/grey layout, or the edited version I did with the wood tones?
I *think* (you can all correct me! xD) that people are leaning towards the skinned version, rather than the plain version at the moment.

2010-09-04 [pixish]: This one: http://elftown.eu/stuff/kai-greywoods-green-v2.jpg

2010-09-04 [Chel.]: Best of both worlds...

2010-09-04 [Kaimee]: Excellent :D We're all on the same page x)

2010-09-04 [pixish]: :D I could almost eat it, that's how delicious it looks :)

2010-09-05 [windowframe]: How about moving the alert bar (new messages, new polls, etc) to a horizontal position and adding it underneath the main nav bar? (or, not having it as a bar, but just as the individual icons, as it is in the final three screen caps on this page, but just underneath the nav bar? That would help save width, and would still be way more noticeable than what we've got now - especially if they're in a rather bright, contrasting colour - e.g. if you used the gold colour from the sc on the left, that would make them stand out from the green nav bar and encourage clickage, hopefully)

2010-09-05 [Kaimee]: Look, width we don't really need to worry about :P We can build it several different ways to optimise it across most screens, a) build it in percentages so it depends entirely on the screen size, or b) build it within recommended guidelines (approx 800-900 width) and have the entire thing float in the center of whatever browser size people use.

2010-09-05 [windowframe]: And we've not really been doing either, and it seems to bother Hedda, so maybe we should actually worry about it a little bit. Maybe we'd get a bit further if we paid it more attention. None of our designs so far have fitted 900px, so maaaaaybe we should work towards that. Y'know, just maybe. <_<

2010-09-05 [Kaimee]: Mines scaleable to 900px, and since yours is the same, it is too :p I've already tested it out, the font-size just needs adjusting. These are all just concepts, obviously there is not a fully worked up psd yet. Until we can get a testing server set up, and a lot of input from True (if Hedda isn't interested, and I can't run the local host on my mac) we won't even know how much of this we can do. Basic things yes, but more development on things like the sidebar I crucial before we'll actually know exactly what to skin.

2010-09-20 [windowframe]: I did consider making the edit function a tab too, but I think that edit button at the bottom is way too useful. I was thinking no watchers & fans could go top right corner, underneath the share button.

2010-09-20 [Akayume]: I'm not sure how possible it is, but with how mobile people are and whatnot (at least in America), has anyone ever thought of creating a version of et for smartphone users?

2010-10-01 [pixish]: I was just thinking, and I know it's been discussed before, but I think it needs to be simplified for new users to be able to use it easily and be able to find something to keep them interested when they first get here. I was going to share a link to Elftown on my facebook page, but then I knew I'd have to explain how to use it and where to find stuff, how to find stuff to do, where stuff is...plus it would be awesome if it looked nicer. (This is basically an argument as to why we definitely need this xp I guess)

2010-10-07 [Chel.]: OH MY GOD. How the hell did I not notice this...
When did the "My Notes" page get revamped?! It's so much easier now!! <3 <3 <3

2010-10-16 [pixish]: Could I make the suggestion that if the 'chat' button is kept, can it link to the actual elfchat instead of a wiki?

P.S - I really like the latest mockup. Having the 'fan' button a bit more noticeable will help the 'popular wikis' thing a bit, I think.

2010-10-16 [Chel.]: Do people really use the chat thing? I mean with instant messengers now... aka Skype, Msn, Adium, etc, I think the feature is rarely touched.

2010-10-16 [windowframe]: Yeah, some people still do use it. :P

2010-10-16 [hanhepi]: i love going to elfchat. i wish i had more time to go hang out with those crazy people. had good times there. but yeah, i'd have that button take people to the actual chat... the Java version at least (since there are those like me too lazy to put mIrc on their computers again.)
ims are great chel, but can you have a mass conversation on them? i though they were more just a 1 on 1 thing?

2010-10-16 [windowframe]: YOu can have group conversations on Skype and Msn, I've never managed to get it to work on Adium though.

2010-10-16 [pixish]: Doing that would require that you give everyone your skype or msn details wouldn't it? (I'm not 100% sure of how it works)
I mean, I have some chat friends, but there are people that I wouldn't care to exactly add to my msn (not that I really use it anymore :p)

2010-10-17 [windowframe]: I'm not sure about Skype, I'm pretty sure I've been in msn group conversation with people who definitely weren't on my contact list, but you can only be invited in by someone already in the chat group.

2010-11-03 [pixish]: I thought I'd just pass on some feedback :p Michael logged onto my account to have a look at what Elftown was, since I'm here a little bit now. He said:
- It's a big jumble...I'm on ...MainStreet?... and I can't see anything to DO...oh wait...there is a forums button I guess - what do you actually do here?

Then he closed it :P He was checking to see if it was worth opening a new account. (He just said he wanted to surprise me with his non-noobiness :p) I explained that they're trying to do a revamp to make it simpler at least :)

2010-11-03 [Akayume]: My boyfriend had the exact same response. He's done some graphic designing and web designing and he said the layout doesn't make sense. :/

2010-11-03 [Sunrose]: My niece [Hazumi] basically said the same. Told her to come here, but she has no clue what to do or what it's for (I did explain what type of people come here).

2010-11-03 [Chel.]: That's the reason we rarely get new members...this place kinda looks like ass and it's hard to navigate. It's why everyone who is constant now joined back in the early 2000s when this website design was how everything else looked.

2010-11-03 [Akayume]: Mmhmm. It's one of those things where if you've been using it forever you get it, but at first glance it's so daunting and busy it's hard to navigate.

2010-11-03 [Sunrose]: When I joined a friend of mine was there to explain the basics, so that made it a lot easier for me..

2010-11-03 [Kaimee]: I work in graphic design and web development, and no way would I let anyone I work with know I frequent this place, because the look, layout and use of Elftown is a disgrace ._.

2010-11-04 [Akayume]: I agree! And it could be so much better. :( I think "mainstreet" is the worst. It's so... cluttered. X.x

2010-11-04 [pixish]: I agree, it's very cluttered. I think a lot of the stuff could be 'hidden' in drop-down menus or something similar that people could then look into when they'd gotten the very basics understood.

2010-11-04 [windowframe]: I don't think it should even be hidden in ddms, most of it should just not be there. At all. It should just have a few links for new people to click, the news, poll, and possibly the features (though I wouldn't mind seeing those on a separate 'Feature Street' page.

2010-11-04 [Akayume]: I think all that mess at the bottom could probably go. I think another thing is that mainstreet is too long. @.@

2010-11-04 [pixish]: I understand that we need the adverts as well, but I think they could be placed in a tidier manner.

2010-11-04 [pixish]: x)
Michael made a funny :p
"Youse should just use the Elftown facebook page, it's much tidier"
I lol'd!

2011-03-22 [Chimes]: *bump* :)

2011-03-22 [Chel.]: The ad with boobs on the bottom isn't really welcoming to younger people.

2011-03-22 [Sunrose]: It probably is welcoming, but not to the kind of people we are trying to attract :P

2011-03-22 [Akayume]: ....Lawl. XD

2011-03-22 [Chel.]: Hah... true that.

2011-04-05 [Rice]: The new layout idea looks amazing. It looks very smooth and I like the fact there isn't a constant break between the pictures, description, badge slot.
Having say the 'basic information' up by the picture is good and then the badges and description directly below it works. Some people's houses are just so long that you never get to the end, having all the important information just there makes me happy!

Maybe, if the subject of fonts is even up for debate, we could give people the ability to pick a font for their house. You can do this with most forums and I think allowing someone to choose from some popular fonts is good.

Onto the main page, I was looking over all the stuff [NOOOPE] said and it's very true. The page is 100 feet long and I agree with the notion that maybe we could have a drop down menu so you can see the full feature. That would look really smart. :D

2011-04-05 [Akayume]: I wish we had more people who can do interwebs stuff. :(

2011-04-05 [Rice]: I wish we had some computer geek held captive somewhere we could prod every now and again to update things. X'3

2011-04-05 [Akayume]: I know that [Kaimee] is UH-MAZING, but super busy. :( And I don't know how to do these things.

2011-04-05 [Akayume]: I also think it would be cool if you could edit the html for your house a little more, like, if there were more options?

2011-04-05 [Akayume]: Also: [Kaimee], you said you have your own layout? Could you screenshot it sometime? I'd like to see. (:

2011-04-05 [Rice]: I'm exactly the same! I know it takes so much time and effort to do these things and it's all so complex. But we'll get there by gum and it'll be amazing!

2011-04-05 [Kaimee]: mm, not my own layout exactly, but I tend to use a different stylesheet for elftown than the standard green one. Everything stays in the same place, but looks less... green o.o
It's called "_kaimee-firefly.css" and you can view it by editing the stylesheet area in your house.

Apart from that, the only other layouts I've done are the skins for SilverFire's layouts. The skin looks a lot like my firefly stylesheet, strangely enough... :P

2011-04-05 [Akayume]: :O I tried it out and I LIKE IT SO MUCH. :D :D ... Can I keep it up [Kaimee]?

2011-04-06 [Kaimee]: Haha I actually have no idea how many people are using it these days, so go ahead. Be warned that I occasionally make changes though :P

2011-04-06 [Akayume]: Is oke. :D I like it a lot!!!

2011-04-06 [Kaimee]: There were other versions (I don't remember their names anymore though >.>) and we used a version of this for last year's April Fools.
The suggestions forum has about 60 million people going "omg this is awesome this better not be an april fool's joke!" which kind of really hammered home the notion that people really did want a redesign in general ^^

2011-04-06 [Aeolynn]: I use it :)

2011-04-06 [Kaimee]: I asked Hedda for a way to list who was using what stylesheet (so I know which ones I can edit and mess up) but he has yet to answer :(
It's awesome to know people are using it [Aeolynn] x)

2011-04-06 [Veltzeh]: When in doubt, copy the stylesheet to a new wiki, mess with that and update the actual one when the testing one looks okay. :)

2011-04-06 [Chimes]: I'ma using the april fools version, I think. :P

2011-06-22 [windowframe]: _Silviegreen.css for anyone who's interested. The message box isn't perfect yet, but I'm fed up of faffing round with the corner graphics at the moment.

2011-06-22 [Akayume]: I'll give it a go. (:

2011-06-22 [Chel.]: I like the shade of green. The grey has some contrast issues though, I think...

2011-06-22 [Rice]: I can't read some of the writing. >_> My bad eyes won't allow it.

2011-06-22 [windowframe]: Yeah, the purple text needs to be made darker, but also ideally, none of the text would be on the darker green/grey background - it would all be on the lighter green, which will help with contrast issues. Ideally, also, with the redesign, there will just be less of the darker green around, since the amount of it at the moment makes the site look a little dreary.

2011-06-22 [Akayume]: I like Kaimee's a lot because the background looks like wood... I sort of like that better than plain color.

2011-06-22 [Chel.]: I've been using Kaimee's stylesheet too.... love it.

2011-06-22 [windowframe]: I've been using a textured background too. But it's not good for text.